On San Marino...

Allow me to assist you:

San Marino CIA Fact Sheet

Current constitution and established republican government has been in effect since 1600, making it the oldest functioning democratic republic on earth. Grand Council has existed since (roughly) 320 AD... and has been the primary instrument of government for the last 1100 years.

However, I'm the first to admit that it is not a nation that can be compared to the United States in a side-by-side glance. San Marino is a city-state, or microstate, and has a population of less than 32,000 people. The only sovereign state that is smaller is Vatican City (ironically, also completely surrounded by Italy). The US is the global superpower, and is well above 10,000 times larger than San Marino.

As I said, I was pushing buttons... trying to be ironic, I guess. Don't get bitchy, okay? We're actually posting here.

Oy...

I'll take a look at San Marino, but to "pick" back, Rome is immediately disqualified under my description. I clearly noted "in the world today." I did not say "of all time." As you noted, Rome's Republic ended when Caesar crossed the Rubicon. I will also note that I sincerely doubt that San "the dan" Marino qualifies under the second of my US facts - existing under the same form of government / founding document that was put in place after its' original revolution (or emergence into liberty). So just throttle back there cheetoh.

Here's why Hitler Youth bounced around in my mind - the initial breaking reports were replete with descriptions of a man opening fire at "a political youth camp run by the ruling party." They kept repeating this phrase. Now I know good and well that their are "young Republican" groups on college, and even high school campuses across the nation, but when news reports spoke of "children" I assumed they meant K-5. So K-5, at a camp conducted by the ruling political party? THAT doesn't cause your mind to acess the Hitler Youth file, even in passing? Really?

No "youth camp" for elementary school aged children I've ever heard of is put on BY and for "the party" here. And trying to hold out 4H or the boy scouts as American examples seems rather lame to me.

Now, the press certainly could have got it wrong. These kids could have been doing arts & crafts and the Labor Party's association could have started and ended with merely cutting the check for expenses. But that's not how it was reported. I'm sorry, but I hear the words "political youth camp", & I see the little fair skinned boy in the black and white footage wearing an arm band & giving his buddies a Sig Heil-five.

But maybe that's just me ... and Beck.

On our facts...

Ryan wrote:

"... of believing in the notion that because the USA is the longest surviving democracy (as a Republic) in the world today..."

In my post immediately preceding yours, I gave an extant example of a republic more than 1,000 years older than the United States... San Marino. An elected, governing representative body for the city-state since the Fourth Century AD, with the only interruptions in rule being that of invasion by a foreign power (30 years of Venetian domination, and 17 by Napoleon). Add to this that I also listed Rome as having existed as a republic for more than 570 years before Caesar ended the Republic and Augustus brought about the Empire, and "both" facts fall apart quickly.

I'm picking on you, of course... but the point is valid. I agree that too many "pseudo-historians" look at the US as the one-and-only, and I agree that this isn't true. I'm just asking that you avoid being "that guy" as much as you can.

On Beck...

You're right, in a "round-about" sort of way, I guess...

Beck could have misspoken, or (more accurately) used a poor choice of words... Lord knows we've done that enough when it is the three of us together! Perhaps, after years of close association, Stu and Pat knew exactly what he meant and intended, while I did not.

As you pointed out, though... WE are not speaking before an audience of 1.5 million people, while HE is. It is incumbent on him to make sure his statements are accurate... otherwise, the errors and mistakes are going to be applied to him until he is either irrelevant in the mainstream or he learns the lesson and corrects the errors prior to air-time.

I did not make the automatic association between "youth camp" and "Hitler Youth". I belonged to several different political associations in my youth, especially in college... and in that mix I will even add that I was a frequent participant in gatherings and activities at the campus Newman Center (admittedly, a religious group... but politics was always a topic of discussion and debate). How much money comes from "political" groups and goes into such organizations as the Boy Scouts of America? The YM/WCA? 4H? Big Brother/Big Sister? All these organizations teach a multitude of society's facets to our youths and young adults... and none should be associated with the purely subversive and utterly immoral Hitler Youth of the 30s. Denying that such organizations as these face political associations (real or perceived) that are antithetical to their nature is simply idiotic. Just ask any mainstream liberal today what the purpose of the Boy Scouts of America is, and I'm sure you'll get an ear full of explanations centered on the anti-gay foundation and pro-Christian bias of the group... when, in point of fact, this is simply NOT the case at all. Perhaps the Young Democrats and the Young Republicans are as "questionable" in their makeup as this youth camp in Norway is?

Still, as you stated... media taint and poor word choices aside, nothing we say now can remove the culpability of the twisted young man for the actions he took last week. His violence and madness lashed out at the very society and people he was purporting to want to defend... and calling the man a "right-wing" Christian extremist is like calling the Final Solution a "failed policy of domestic restructuring". Nothing in his actions or intent can in any way be associated with or be defended by Christianity as any rational human being understands it. All that sort of association does is to "transfer" or "share" the culpability of his actions with Christianity at large, for the sole benefit of those that hate traditional Judeo-Christian morals and ethics.

Let me add...

I neglected to mention something. Probably because I felt it so glaringly obvious it didn't occur to me. No one is to blame for the Oslo slayings but the slayer himself.

Now, it is true that Norway is suffering the same fate as all of Western Europe, it's becoming Islamic at an incredible rate. And there's a rather simple mathematical reason. See, Natural born Western Europeans are not reproducing. They're turning out children at about 1.1. Demographers will tell you that a society, any society, requires a "sustainment" rate of 2.1. And Europe has a more lavish welfare state than anything Obama has yet to dream up, requiring equally lavish taxes and worker bees to produce those taxes. So if your indigenous population is literally not "producing", where do you get these bees? Europe's answer - North Africa. The vast migration of Mexican nationals into the US, & the various cultural & societal impact that carries, is similar to the events going on in Europe, regarding Muslims. Google it if you wish, but the #1 name in the UK for new born males is now Mohammed.

Now we are all familiar with the heated political debate around "push 9 for Spanish", & so on. But imagine how elevated that heat would become it were "push 9 for Arabic." That's the quandry Western Europe is in - cut back benefits or increase immigration, knowing that that immigration will take the form of Islam.

We here have more or less agreed that the only long term solution to Muslim intolerance & terror is an inter faith Reformation or evolution in interpretation. We could site the numbers endlessly... majority of Saudis think Bin Laiden a hero; Mein Kompf a best seller throughout the Mid East; more than half of Muslims believe 9/11 an inside job perpetrated by Zionists; clerics claiming they are "Muslim-fying" Europe; only 2 out of 47 maority Muslim nations are democratic, etc, etc. Yet Europe keeps importing this intolerance by the thousands. It is a very real quandry for them. But NONE of that justifies or excuses the Oslo killer's evil deeds. No more than it indicts white Christians whom raise questions about unchecked immigration policies.

And as a brief aside I'd wager that within the Oslo killers's home country he would find less than 1/10th of one percent support. Last I looked bin Laiden enjoyed a roughly 80% approval upon his home Saudi soil. I can only assume it's climbed since our SEAL got off the round heard round the world. And those are numbers that would make even Michael Savage happy to learn Spanish.

I'm curious ...

I have 3 points, but let me first say that unfortunately, and without warning, the local affiliate that carries Glenn Beck (720am KDWN) dropped him 2 weeks ago. They replaced him with Dennis Miller. I like Miller, but it is far and away not the type of historically oriented, politically based discussion I enjoy with Beck. To be honest, I was pretty pissed. Limbaugh is "ok," but then I'm out of options. Hannity? Are you kidding? Regis and Kathy Lee had less vapid banter. At least they had the occasional juggling bear or chimp that could cook (although I suppose that Muppet washed on hot Carville fits nicely into that category). I suppose I could access Beck's radio program online, but radio is my medium of choice precisely because it's accessible on the go. I don't have time to sit at my computer for 3 hours.

At any rate, your description of Beck's take on this youth camp piqued my interest, bringing me to Point #1 - Titus, when you heard that this "camp" was a "political youth camp", run by the ruling Labor Party, did your fertile mind not summon the phrase, if not the image, of Hitler Youth? Mine sure did. I'm not making any comparisons of the Third Reich and the Norwegian Labor Party, I'm simply saying that any person of our ilk, holding a particular fascination with the past and the penchant for studying it, would understandably race to the image of Hitler Youth. I really don't fault Beck for that, as my mind leaped to the same thing.

Point #2. When I run into political leftists, cordially at work or elsewhere, I often have one question for them regarding Glenn Beck. For example I spent the better part of 2 hours the other night, whilst dealing black jack, talking to a P.h.D graduate of Harvard. As a brief aside my first line out the chute was, "What, you couldn't get into Oxford?" ... hehe. He teaches st Florida State and his doctorate is on "American Civilization." He has a particular fascination with WWI. All good, good stuff to help me pass an otherwise torturous night of snapper. As I said, we were talking and at some point I mentioned that Goebbels, in his diaries, had a great deal of admiration for the Wilson propaganda machine. He agreed, and noted that the three worst offenders of Civil Liberties in US history (we're talking CIC's now) was Adams, Lincoln, and Wilson (whic told me that he didn't belong to the foaming at the mouth hate Bush crowd). These are fine choices, very defensible, don't get me wrong. But he went on to say that Beck is fond of linking Goebbels to Wilson, Wilson to Progressives, and Progressives to Obama. In essence he was arguing that Beck has found a tidy little way to tie Barak Obama to Nazism, without stating it directly. Look, it wasn't an altogether indefensible argument, but then he drops the, "Beck is the most dangerous man in America" line on me. Well, now he's lost me. Because as I told him, although I spend limited time at the Post Office these days, I still don't recall seeing Beck's image on the Most Wanted pin ups. This was all the long way, Titus, of posing to you the question I never quite got an answer for in my time with the good professor. Amongst the cacophony of voices peppering the political-talk landscape from cable news, to radio to the Internet, can't you at least credit Beck with spurring, inviting and even encouraging political discourse rooted in the study of history? Because I do. And I think that's worth noting and pausing long enough to give the man credit for. What other 5 day a week popular political talk show can invite a post here about 500 BC?

Point #3 - I agree with you on Beck's historical mistake. Two Millinea ago Athenians were selecting white stones and black stones. You can go to Greece, to this day, and stand on the spot where giant pots sat while each Athenian adult male walked up and cast a white stone for "yes" and a black stone for "no" into those pots. This was the sole invention of an Athenian general whom had tossed off the ruling family of Athens and pondered long and hard on how to give Athens back to the people. It is the literal Genesis for the phrase "Athenian Democracy." There are endless other examples. The most famous Western Monarchy (or at least the most media savvy one) is the English Throne. Yet not a single, not one, of Prince William's royal a forefathers or mothers were allowed to raise taxes on their subjects without the permission of Parliament. Now some American pseudo-historians often fall into the trap of believing in the notion that because the USA is the longest surviving democracy (as a Republic) in the world today, and due to our status as the only "free" nation on earth that exists under the same form of government that was put in place after its' Revolution (both factual statements), that we have cornered the market on self governance; and that same pseudo-historian will then without thought dismiss Europe as continent of absolute monarchs and failed democracies. Which, once again, was a long way of saying yes, Beck was wrong. But the essence of my third point wasn't only that I agree with you, but also this - when we error in our historical arguments only a handful of bloggers or family members hear of it. When Beck does, 15 million people bare witness. And even though he's a professional broadcaster and one steeped in historical text (compared to his colleagues at least), when you're spending 15+ hours a week essentially talking and arguing amongst your friends (Pat, Stu and various guests), the occasional mistake will undoubtedly occur ... as it did here.

By the way - we're really burning up the posts lately, aren't we? Sheeesh. Oh, I almost forgot, how did the Jambo trip to NEPA go? Or was that scheduled for August? I wasn't sure ... I'm pissed that I can't go, that I'm sure about that.

Glenn Beck... again...

Tough to deny this quote... made yesterday on his radio broadcast: "There was a shooting at a political camp, which sounds a little like the Hitler youth, or, whatever. I mean, who does a camp for kids that's all about politics. Disturbing,"

However, I could let this slide as a faux pas but for the comments that followed it (which none of the rags and media outlets cared to pick up on).

He rambled on about some kind of monologue that he had delivered last year predicting exactly this sort of attack in Europe. Why was he able to predict this attack so "precisely"? Because the Europeans had replaced kings and monarchs with "other" big-government organs... you know, like "communism" and "fascism". Thus, there is no difference between European "left wing" and European "right wing"... they both represent big government and are both wrong. The US, on the other hand, has the "left" longing for big, bloated government, and the "right" longing for small, almost non-existent government.

Honestly... this is a load of crap from beginning to end. Europe is replete with the history of representative government. It is the cradle of it, in fact. The oldest extant example of a republican nation is in Europe (San Marino), as is the first historical example (the Roman Republic) established in 500 BC. Every monarchy that still exists in Europe (and there are many... they are not all gone) is bound to the will and dictates of a popularly elected representative body and a constitution. Absolute monarchy does not exist in Europe... in fact, the only place it does exist is in the Muslim monarchies of the Middle East and Southeast Asia.

Blaming this tragedy on "multiculturalism" is just as bad as blaming this tragedy on non-existent "commies" and "fascists" running things in Europe today. You can't point to the Norwegian monarchy and say "Here is the problem!", nor can you point to the current ruling party in Norway as the cause. The only cause for this sort of tragedy is the bent and twisted thinking of intolerant individuals bent on forcing THEIR will and wants on the rest a population or society... which is exactly what the crackpot responsible for this was trying to do. This crazy was hell-bent on following a path of violence and murder that was 100% antithetical to the very precepts of the society he was supposedly "defending" from Islamic and multicultural influences... and that is the failing of such movements each and every time.