Unit 61398

I've never seen you quite so emotionally blind to obvious points Titus. I say "emotionally" because you are so exercised about the domestic abuses (which are very real and vast) that you have simply chosen to disregard the foreign Intel leaks with phrases like, "I have no friggin idea", or "maybe" this, or "maybe" that, not to mention my personal favorite (regarding why Snowden leaked foreign operational information), "I don't know and I don't care."

Oh. Ok. Good answer. A pleasure doing business with you.

Perhaps if I read on I'll get a more rationale approach:

"Lest we forget... the only people that had an issue with the foreign intel portions of the leak were those directly responsible for the domestic info grab, and I don't care what F Ryan says to the contrary... I don't trust anything those sons of bitches have to say on the matter."

No. No luck there. By the way, the statement, " the only people that had an issue with the foreign intel portions of the leak were those directly responsible for the domestic info grab.." is patently false. For one, I care and I am not at all responsible for the domestic info grab. Two, many a Tea Party Senator, like Ted Cruz and Rand Paul, care about the foreign Intel leaks and they are livid about the domestic abuses. Lastly, the confirmation about how bad and vast the foreign Intel leaks are have not exclusively come from the NSA hierarchy, nor even exclusively the NSA. You're just wrong here buddy.

This is not the cold, calculated caliber of argument I am used to from you. I'm the last one to admonish an emotional post, but you don't get to do this - simply say "pass" when it's your turn to discuss the foreign Intel leaks, and still pretend we're having a legitimate discussion on the subject of domestic leaks. He did both. Leaving out half the conversation isn't a conversation at all.

In my opinion you are giving Snowden a complete pass on a grave betrayal regarding the foreign Intel. Your writing smacks of "well they had it coming", or "it was worth it to get the information on domestic abuses." Fine. Be pissed about the domestic stuff, I am as well, that's all good and well, but how do you just "not care" why he leaked the foreign Intel and then chalk any damage up to "oh well, we'll get by"? Do you realize that there are now entire catalogs being printed and passed out within the Red Chinese Army, and Iran, based exclusively on Snowden's leaks? And believe me, the material in those catalogs aren't focused on US domestic abuses. Surely the Iranians and Chinese already knew or suspected portions of what he leaked, but he laid out foreign Intel operations in such stunning detail it takes one's breath away. And your cavalier approach to those leaks makes me think you haven't thoroughly investigated what he let out of the black bag. I don't expect you to peruse all 200,000 documents, but buddy there is more in there than meta-data and back doors into Google.

I'll give you an example (and this is just one of many out there)...

I think we would agree that the NY Times is Snoweden friendly. I mean they did write an editorial insisting the President grant him clemency under whistle blower status. This story: NSA Devises Radio Pathway Into Computers, by the Times, lays out in detail our efforts to combat the ongoing cyber attacks from China (among others), on both civilian and military targets. This is a current story (in fact it's front page on Drudge right now). Every bit of this story is based on the Snowden leaks and the subsequent catalogs printed around the world. The leaked details include code names, specific operational tactics, specific Red Chinese Army units targeted (see my post title), and details on specific hardware all that the Times admits has not been used domestically. Do you see the gravity of that? His defenders, his champions, had to admit that there is no evidence that these programs and/or hardware is being used domestically. None. So why did he leak that? How does leaking that enhance the civil liberties of F. Ryan? You were right on one thing though, it doesn't really matter why he leaked that, it's an academic discussion because no matter his reason those kind of leaks are traitorous. Surely you are aware of the ongoing cyber war between the US and China, right? The attacks they launched at US targets, you know of this, don't you? Snowden has aided our enemies in a material way. You read that article and tell me that's not a true statement.

I've said this from my first post in response to your exaltation of Moscow resident Edward Snowed - people arguing the pros and cons of his leaks are typically talking right past each other, only focusing on either the domestic or foreign document leaks. The problem is you don't get to be a cafeteria Snowden defender (or prosecutor for that matter). You can't choose what you like about his actions and just ignore the rest. The stakes are too high, the subject matter too serious. From the Chinese to the Iranians he released foreign Intel specificity that even included maps - yes maps - of those specific hot spots where we are actively conducting operations - country, city, name of location and outfit being targeted (which includes major drug cartels). And when his leaks are that specific you can't pretend they don't count when determining the man's character or status. Remember, our argument isn't over whether or not the NSA needs to be reigned in domestically (and their supporters of these domestic programs in Washington voted out of office), on that we agree. Where we part ways is in calling Edward Snowden a "patriot", or even worse, a "hero." That's where the third segment (as listed by me) of those leaks comes into play. I sincerely appreciate his waking us up to the doemstic abuses and Orwellian, even thuggish, behaivor towards our Constitution being perpetrated by our own government. But in terms of describing Snowden's place in history, you don't get to give our enemies (and they are enemies for those are real cyber attacks coming from China and real bullets being shipped out of Iran into Iraq) a heads up on our Intelligence gathering capabilities, maps, program code names, hardware specifics (including diagrams for goodness sakes), limitations, and technological stage of development and still get to wear a red cape in my book. Although, given his new digs, maybe "red" is his preferred color... hehe.