Live long and prosper - just do it legally please....

Just a couple of points.

One of the reasons I have always enjoyed our friendship, and the spirited arguments, is that each of us, when it finally hits that our argument or position is untenable, just comes right out and says it - I know I have had to more then a couple of times.

On the US military. There have been instances, Haiti etc, where the police function went array - I get that. I just believe that if they were stationed with the mandate to protect their own soil, they would be fantastic. And in California, where Swarschenegger sent his state guard (to a high traffic access point) the spot all but dried up. Undoubtedly they went somewhere else, but the point is it was effective. On that we will just agree to disagree until when and if it is implemented and one of us is shown to be correct.

On the English proficiency. Even every Democrat's plan includes this. And while your point about the proficiency in English of natural born citizens is well taken, I would add that an even more extreme example would be the inability for high school students and probably 80% of the populous (a generous number) to understand basic civics, government or naming the states and presidents - yet we require that knowledge of new immigrants, they even take a test on it. And as far as I know, those tests are in fact prepped with multi week classes, as are English classes - although I don't think the English is required like the history/government classes. See, you put in a multi step citizenship program - they pass the medical examination and background check, and get issued a temporary visa i.e. "entry"- they then have X amount of time to learn English in these provided classes. I'm fine with that. And the "who" whom would judge the proficiency is easy in my eyes. The same instructor that teaches civics and US history undoubtedly "grades" the test - the English instructor would do the same. Use the same scale that they implement in grading "proficiency" in history , have a test after the weeks of classes, and bingo. I hope you didn't think I meant they had to recite Poe's The Raven at the border check point before they are admitted. The medical exam and background check for entry, yes - the English is for citizenship (with a solid expiration date on their Visa to encourage this followed by an actual deportation if they just let it lapse). I think we have some common ground there.

But the bottom line, as I and James have advocated, is that ANY program that does not first stop the leak, will doom the boat to sinking. And I will just simply have to disagree with you on our ability to do that - the real and virtual fence, with an enormous increase in man power and I it can be done. And remember - you don't have to police or fence every square mile for a huge effectiveness rate. Some of that area is very rough terrain, and nearly untraversable. So you focus on the main (and sub-main) traffic areas and you can make a large dent very rapidly because you force them into areas that will cause some simply to not try. At any rate I find the project very doable, and much less costly then the status quo (that's guess on my part, but even if it's a net cost, it's the right and "secure" thing to do). Not to mention - if you perceive a slight hostility towards Hispanics over the "press 1 for English", what do you think could happen if a suicide bomber takes out just three or four people in a shopping mall and his steps are traced back to crossing that border illegally? Let alone a suitcase nuke coming over the Rio Grande. Draconian won't even begin to describe what would be the outcome then.

Also, I'm fine with sanctioning Mexico - just remember, they have some sweet light crude they might dangle in front of us if we do ... I still say screw em' - they've been screwing us on this issue (govt printed pamphlets on how not only sneak in, but avoid detection once you're here) for a long time.

In closing I'll repeat that I think my plan would work - but I don't see the political will arising to prosecute it. I think there's enough "testicalage" to build the real/virtual fence and man it, and if it's Republican presidency in 08' he'll more than likely have to do it before he's up for reelection. Let's hope so. At least that's a start. That and Titus conceding we are right in principle, even if he wishes our "fellow man" sensibilities were a little more "finely tuned."
Later.
FR