THIS IS NOT THE POINT !!!!

Of course YOU respond first ....

Look - pull the TVA out, say it made money afterwards and on down the line since its' founding, FINE! The point is as part of a report card I must consider whether or not "NEW DEAL", in toto, worked or did not! Both of you have conceded that while there were "bright spots", & it later aided in the war effort, that it DID NOT delive on the promise of success by decades end. Thus the qualifier you each employ regularly when discussing this: "I'm not defending the New Deal, I'm not saying FDR was right." Believe me, were it successful I would have never read those words (over & over)! If you COULD defend it I have no doubt you would of! Why is that so hard for you to grasp??? You have EACH conceded this to me. You have EACH explained that there were "bright spots", items that DID make money like the TVA, future advantages like power in remote areas otherwise unable to contribute to the war effort, but you may not have your cake and eat it too my friends! None of what you describe, and I mean NOT A SYLLABLE constitutes a rating of "SUCCESS" for New Deal for the era! You've both even said so! I'm not letting you get away with this "It wasn't a success but it wasn't a failure either" double speak any longer. PICK ONE! I'm judging New Deal on whether it met its stated goals - to end the ERA of depressions, recessions and unemployment. It DID NOT. Unemployment climbed back to 19% by 1940, after nearly a decade of New Deal. There was another sharp recession in 1938, dubbed the "Roosevelt Recession", not by F.Ryan, but by HISTORY. And don't give me this nonsense about that recession was because the GOP screamed about spending so the spicket was turned off - there was still many a dollars flowing compared to 1930 when he took office, and regardless FDR signed the spending bill, his budget during his tenure HIS recession. I'm quite sure that's why historians have named it as such. Near the close of the decade the program as a whole had NOT met its stated goals. The era of recessions and unemployment, of dollar, property and stock values, and new business start ups had NOT returned to pre bust levels, READ: the "malaise" CONTINUED UNTIL WWII. To go back, demonstrate that in the long run the TVA turned a profit, and that the energy plants helped the war effort is IRRELEVANT when judging the success or failure of "NEW DEAL." New Deal wasn't sold or set up to turn a profit for the government over 70 years! It wasn't set up to serve as a bulwark for war time production! It was set up TO END THE ERA OF DEPRESSIONS, RECESSIONS AND HIGH UNEMPLOYMENT! It didn't! Roosevelt didn't go on the radio and whistle stop tours shouting, "And if you elect me, I'll make sure the TVA turns a profit for decades after you and I die!" "Furthermore, if you elect me, I will end the text book definition of 4 quarters of consecutive negative growth ... it'll be 2, maybe 3, but I'll put a stop to 4!"

People, people, people, get a grip! This is not the standard! Did it deliver what it promised - to end the era of hardship, high unemployment and recessions? NOOOOOOOOOO. I don't give a damn how many tanks it built in later years or how big a bonus the TVA director gets in 2010 - this ain't the damn point!

Jeeeeesh.

He was a superb war time CIC, fine, I concede that. But we aren't doing a "war time report card", are we? The standard was a "Presidential Report Card." I'm sorry, but as much as you would like to (Jambo), you don't to get to ignore domestic policy OF A FOUR TERM PRESIDENT because he beat back the Huns! His SIGNATURE domestic policy (in multiple pieces) is New Deal. You say it is indefensible as a "success." So did you Titus. Fine, bright spots aside, it FAILED. If the war is one half and New Deal the other then FDR gets a full 50%, for the war, a goose egg for his economic policy/theory which was his entire domestic agenda entitled NEW DEAL which you both say can not be defended in total as a "success." Fine - in ANY report card a 50% rating is a failing grade.

Like I said .... JEEEEEEEEESH