This is SO typical...

I really don't know what to say.

Ryan, I'm flat out amazed that you could write what you did... and utterly NOT amazed that you are enraged that I wrote what I did. You almost never take the time to really READ what I am writing... you simply assume what I am saying and react to that assumption.

Jambo, I'm amazed that you are still the "nice-Nazi" that you were back in the Wealthwood Park days... something really never change, huh?

So, now having missed ALL the flames while I did a quick ten hours at the joint, I might as well weigh in too, right?

First of all... I need some clarification. What frigging "holocaust jokes" did I make??? I made a sarcastic reference to the nightmare of the Nazi genocide... not to decry or demean the Israelis, but to show the marked myopic view that most conservatives take when looking at the issues facing the Palestinian question. More to the point, I was using it to decry and demean RYAN... not the Israelis.

I have NEVER made a joke about the holocaust, but I have made flippant reference to it and I have employed a sarcastic tone when speaking of it or about it... and there is a great injustice in doing that. I know that, and I readily apologize for it.

So... having said that, can we now, once and for all, move past THAT episode in our history? Is this forever going to be a thorn festering in our paw?

Now, in the almost forlorn hope of having put the "holocaust jokes" portion of the last several posts to rest... can we move on now to a more rational discussion of why that poster so completely pissed off Ryan?

"Why you shameful, slothful, jackal faced, slimy little moron! "

Nice post title... really helped set the tone for the rest of the read, let me tell you. Most here at my house wanted me to point out that "jackal-faced" should have been hyphenated... but I don't want to be labeled as the Grammar Nazi again either. Liz thought "slothful" particularly apt...

I could go through the last couple of posts and cut-and-paste mountains of stuff to refute... but I won't. I think I can sum up the problem rather nicely without it.

I can't stand Ayn Rand. She was a good writer (not great, but good). She held solid, conservative views, many of which I agree with. She was a great advocate of small, very limited government that functioned within very clear boundaries of operation. She looked for a free hand for business, with low taxes, as the best means of a strong, vibrant economy. She believed in an educated electorate, aware of the issues and ready to exercise their franchise rights to the best of their ability at every opportunity.

She also believed that "America" as it existed during her lifetime could NOT be criticized for actions, policies or agendas of the past because those actions, policies and agendas brought America to exactly where it was when she was writing, speaking and formulating her political and philosophical views. I am convinced she was a racist, a bigot, and an ultra-nationalist. America wasn't the greatest nation on earth because of the ideals of the Constitution and the founding principles that led to it... it was the greatest nation on earth because of what it had gained over the 175 years it had existed prior to her arriving at her conclusions. In short, that means that slavery, the abuse of native peoples, failures in governmental ethics or standards, and wrongs perpetrated by the majority onto the minority were ALL ACCEPTABLE in light of where the nation had come as a whole.

In short, she was a firm believer in "The ends justify the means" when it comes to the study and understanding of American history. I think Ryan feels the same way.

I feel it is just and right to look at our national history, and to recognize where we failed or made mistakes, and to know with utter certainty that we are where we are today because we overcame those failings and mistake... not in spite of those failings and mistakes.

Ryan claims that the poster "indicts" every non-native person in America since 1492... but I don't see it that way. I see it as a bold example of a minority segment of our society gently reminding ALL of us that tyranny has many faces, and it has been OUR face at times in the past.

Can anyone deny that terror and tyranny have been employed by the US government in the past? Has anyone a greater right to bring this up than the people most associated with Red Cloud and his fellow Sioux? Who am I to question the Cherokee who thinks the Indian Removal Act was tyranny? Who am I to question the Sioux who thinks that the actions of the US 7th Cavalry Regiment at Pine Ridge, SD was tantamount to "state sponsored murder" when they shot 351 men, women and children in the snow for no other crime than dancing a "illegal" religious dance? The very picture that got all this started is of Red Cloud and his other Sioux leaders visiting PA in 1880 to inspect the schools where their children were being educated by a government that didn't represent them, with teachers that didn't answer to them at all, in a state they didn't live in and couldn't travel to without permission. That, to me, sounds a lot like tyranny. Red Cloud couldn't vote, he couldn't own land, and he couldn't buy a train ticket to see his kids in PA without special permission from Washington DC and the BIA. His friends, family and at least one of his children would DIE at Wounded Knee only ten years later... for no other reason than that they wanted to dance a special religious dance that the government had decided was "bad".

If that was the sort of stuff that those men were willing to fight against, then I think they are better examples of "American Heroes" than James Polk, William McKinley, Andrew Jackson, or Zach Taylor ever could hope to be. I'd also go so far as to say that anything our men and women in uniform are fighting to defend and protect NOW, those same men were fighting for THEN.

So, please... stop assuming I have forgotten why men like those Jambo listed and your brother risk their lives to protect what this nation stands for, when it is abundantly clear that the one that has forgotten is you. They fight against bin Laden and all the rest... yes, but they fight to keep us safe from repeats of Wounded Knee, and the Indian Removal Act, and Dred Scot, and Plessy v Fergeson, and all the other mistakes and errors that this great "experiment in democracy" has stumbled into since it began. THAT is the genius of this nation... we learn from our mistakes, and we are stronger and better for it.